A few weeks ago I asked myself this question:
What if I picked a fellow creator/business owner and had a week long email conversation with them where each day we’d email each other to talk about what we did that day, ask each other questions, learn from each other, etc. and then published the full conversation as a piece of content? I could do it each week with a different person.
Well, it’s no longer hypothetical because I did it.
I reached out to creativity coach Beth Lapides, founder of the legendary Uncabaret comedy empire, and asked if she’d have a “Creative Correspondence” with me.
She agreed, and following is the full transcript of our conversation that played out over the course of seven emails and 17 days.
We touched on everything from how to pick your next project, to balancing art and business, to the most creative things we’ve ever seen.
I hope you enjoy reading it as much as we enjoyed writing it…
From Josh to Beth (Monday, May 18 at 3:35 pm)
Hi Beth!
I’m so excited to do this conversation/interview/pen pal relationship thingy with you this week.
I’m not sure what I’m going to call these, but maybe Creative Correspondence because who doesn’t love a bit of alliteration, right?
As I mentioned before, it’s an experiment so I have no idea what this will actually be beyond us exchanging some emails – I guess we’ll figure out what it is as we go.
A good place to start might be with an explanation of why I invited you to do this with me.
For years, I’ve thought about myself and my work as being on a spectrum – with my inner artist on one side and my inner businessman on the opposite end.
I’m constantly swinging back and forth between the two sides, spending the majority of my time in the middle – creating work that’s one part art, one part business.
(Side note: The whole art vs business thing is a bit cliche and a false choice in reality, but that’s a take for another day.)
The ability to do both and straddle that line has served me well over the years – it’s a super power I’m lucky to have.
But…
The truth is at my core I’m more artist than businessman.
More interested in creativity than monetization and in making than marketing.
Lately, I’ve been leaning into (accepting?) that reality more and more.
Part of that means doing creative experiments like this email exchange.
Creating for the sake of creating.
Ironically, the first person I thought of to do this email exchange with was a business coach I know.
But when I got your email telling me about your new Pick Your Next Project (which I can’t wait to listen to!), I had an epiphany:
You’re the perfect person to do this with because I’m not sure anyone I’ve ever met represents creativity quite the way you do.
So I asked, you graciously accepted, and here we are.
Now that our “origin story” is out of the way, I figured I’d set some ground rules to guide us.
The only rule is that there is no rule – tell me whatever you want, whatever’s on your mind, whatever you want to ask me, whatever you did that day, or anything else that comes to mind.
Here are a few things I did today you might find interesting:
1. When I was writing tomorrow’s issue of my newsletter I was listening to Mozart (not something I typically do.)
So I added a line at the bottom of the newsletter randomly that said the newsletter was written while I was listening to Mozart.
No idea why I added that, just thought people might find it interesting or unexpected.
I now think it might be fun to always add a line at the bottom with some random bit of info unrelated to the newsletter itself.
Kind of like an Easter egg.
I tend to get a random idea like that, try it, and then want to do it regularly – I’m guessing you can relate!
2. Have you read Cameron Crowe’s memoir?
I’m reading it now and it’s awesome.
I shared a cool story about how he got his first writing gig here.
3. Someone commented on my LinkedIn post about how creators ain’t what they used to be this morning and asked me what a “creator” would look like if there were no social platforms around.
Here was my answer:
I imagine it would look a bit like the early days of blogging.
As someone who started their first blog on Blogger way back in 1999 (I think), I remember how different that was.
You couldn’t even easily upload images – let alone video.
You could write and post links.
You had to basically go directly to the sites you wanted to read.
And the idea that you could ever make money from doing so wasn’t even on the radar.
It was pure creating for the sake of creating and it was awesome.
Also because everyone else who was doing it was doing it for the same reason.
Like I said, I’m in a creative mood lately!
4. I’ll leave you with a question…
What’s the single most creative thing you’ve ever witnessed in person?
From Beth to Josh (Monday, May 18 at 10:42 pm)
Hey Josh!!!!
1. To answer that last question first.
I want to say doing my own work because creativity is such an intimate experience of life – and being creative is like triple strength to just witnessing.
But! Also!
Meredith Monk at Disney Hall. Atlas. Front row seats. Transported me to… where? The level of Mastery. Misstery? Mystery!
Collaboration of the team. The sense it was being created with us. Though it had obviously been created before us.
That’s one.
You?
2. And working backwards in your email.
Love all that and I love being part of this experiment.
Right at the start of it. Pioneering.
One of the words I most identify with.
When I was starting out there was a year I alternated between reading particle physics and watching Little House on The Prairie.
Those pioneering women. Plus his great hair.
And UnCabaret. Pioneering.
Right?
I used to take pride in it.
But lately, I’ve tried to be less ‘ahead of my time’ and actually be more in my time.
3. The art and business thing.
So big. We’ll need to talk about this all week.
I’ve always identified as an artist.
But of course every artist has to come to terms with being in business.
I think probably right after we last spoke – I was promoting my original audiobook – there I go – pioneering again – So You Need To Decide – and you generously had me on your… show? podcast?
What happened after that book – maybe it was the focus on decision making – because I made a decision. I saw the money from that book was going to run out and though I was trying to sell the next book or script – and there were some clients and shows – I decided I needed to make a change. I had to take the business part more seriously.
And that’s when I committed to building The Infinite Creator. Creativity coaching.
And over the past 4 years the only way I could love doing it was to treat myself as client number one.
Keep doing my own work rigorously.
It’s doing my own work that gives me the juice, energy, insight to be able to expertly coach other creatives.
I had of course been teaching comedy and storytelling for many years – people sought me out because there was nowhere to learn UnCabaret-style comedy. But after years of it, I was interested in the bigger picture.
I didn’t want to just help people be funnier, tell better stories – I wanted to be involved in transformation.
The transformation that happens when you commit to creative work.
I use the infinity sign because we make work – it changes us – so the new us makes different work – and then we change again… we create the work and the work creates us. It’s that infinite loop that’s so powerful.
And I think once I understood that the word creative comes from a word that means to grow – not to make – it shifted my understanding of why we are so compelled by the process. Growth.
And it’s been truly an adventure to build a business doing this work.
Some days it leans towards therapy, some days towards cheerleading.
Some days toward project management. I’ll stop there about building this biz for today – obv I could go on for too long!
4. Today like most days was deeply varied. That’s one thing I require.
5. Among the things I did – two calls with prospective clients.
Both super interesting conversations. Helpful for each of them. I didn’t close. Closing is fun. Follow up calls scheduled though.
Then guess what? The newsletter! Hahaha. I have 2.
This one is The UnCabaret list. We have a show on Friday. Those are once a month now. After like 35 years. Ha ha. So UnCab weeks are a little more Uncab heavy.
But even in those emails I include a link and graphic to my Substack.
That I publish one written a week and one pod which is essentially an annotated version of the written. That cadence is something to discuss.
6. Also did some other UnCab work.
Ads, graphics. Staff. Checked in with my assistant. He’s teking the infintecreatorcoaching.com work I did over the weekend. That is now the 3rd website. UnCabaret.com, bethlapides.com and this. I understand life through triangles so I find these three settling.
7. Also dealt with merch, tried on dresses I’d ordered to replace my current sequin stage uniform because it’s gotten too big – yay.
Prepped for an interview tmrw about comedy past and future, got a blow out and nails, answered messages, took a cold call about ticketing, thought about material for Friday, worked on a new book project, sketched in my this week substack. And meditated.
8. I have not read Cameron Crowe’s book.
Sounds awesome. Currently reading a memoir called More. Found on book box on my street. I love the book box. Talk about a moment of creative community. Knowing what folks in your neighborhood are reading – or not reading – is kind of thrilling.
Have to go crash now. Will watch a little Euphoria first. Started over at the beginning. It’s so layered. And brilliant.
Hope this isn’t all too much.
See you tomorrow.
xx Beth
From Josh to Beth (Wednesday, May 20 at 10:58 am)
Hey Beth!
Hope your week is off to a good start.
I’ve got a bunch of stuff for you today, so I’ll jump right into it.
1. The most creative thing I’ve ever seen in person was probably a performance of Hamilton.
It wasn’t the performance specifically, but just the creation of it that consistently blows me away.
To take a historical figure’s story and have the vision to create something so powerful and layered where everything about it works is amazing – I just can’t wrap my head around how anyone was able to do that.
Because every tiny bit of it works – the music, story, performance, message, adaptation, and more are all mind-blowing on their own and for it all to be combined into one creation just blows me away.
2. I think one of the biggest lessons anyone who works with clients needs to learn is to treat yourself as one of your clients.
If you don’t, you’re not really working for yourself any more because your own interests and goals and needs sit unmet in the background.
Are you really working for yourself if you’re not working on what you want to work on?
Or have you just traded having one boss for a bunch of bosses (your clients).
It’s a trap I see tons of people fall into and one I’ve fallen into at times myself too.
By the way, I loved having you on my podcast – here’s our episode which it’s hard to believe came out 3 years ago!
3. I’m curious what a call with a potential client is like for you?
How do you approach it, how long do you chat, what typically happens, etc.
4. Are your newsletters basically promotional for your shows or are you doing other stuff with them as well?
5. I started listening to your Pick Your Next Project podcast and love it.
I’m a few episodes in and it’s already giving me a lot to think about – I’m definitely going to promote it in my newsletter and I’m sure my readers will be really interested in it because I think it’s a problem SO many people struggle with.
A few things you said in it really jumped out at me:
• The exercise to create an inventory and unventory of all your potential/existing/abandoned projects is such a powerful one. It’s so obvious, and yet…I’ve never done it. Pretty sure my list is going to be long (and eye-opening).
• You said something like “Our work is making decisions all day” and that also really resonated with me. Not only am I vulnerable to decision fatigue as a result, but I’m also a big believer in making quick decisions when possible – even a “bad” decision is better than no decision.
Thinking In Bets is a great book on decision making.
A few months ago I wrote about what might happen if I forced myself to make 10 decisions a day.
• “It’s never too late to be what you might have been.” What a great line and it probably partially inspired me to publish this today.
By the way, the Nick Cave newsletter issue I reference in that can be found here – I bet you’ll love it.
6. That’s probably more than enough for today, but I’ll leave you with another question:
Is there a video on YouTube you’ve found yourself going back to watch multiple times because you find it inspiring?
From Beth To Josh (Monday, May 25 at 11:06 pm)
Hi Josh!
Hope you had a good weekend.
1. Do you take weekends? Meaning are they different for you?
They are for me a bit.
Today – a 3 day weekend Monday – I had a bunch of cleanup stuff – emails to answer etc and I was dreading one particular task.
One particular “shouldn’t be hard” thing I felt up against.
So I took a walk to the good coffee place.
Along the way some really cool walls grabbed my attention. Not something I would normally shoot, but I did. Something about the light.
And when I went to post the pictures I realized I’d felt like I was up against a wall – and then just had seen all these beautiful walls.
A wall can be beautiful, even an invisible one.
That was my take away.
Came home knocked that release form out in 20 minutes.
And realized I really need to get my apple mail fixed. I’ve tried!
One operator literally said, honey just go to bed.
Have an appointment at the Genius bar this week,
There is so much work to do just to keep things running.
I try to be inspired as I go.
2. Potential client calls.
What they are like – me asking a lot of questions.
I’m trying to figure out what the big dream is.
If I could wave my fairy godmother wand.
My client work is yearly, so I’m trying to understand not just goals, but what transformation people are looking for.
They don’t always know coming in.
I’m looking for the hunger, the real pain that got them to schedule.
I’m looking to see if we are a good fit.
It’s a little bit therapy intake call, a little bit of me running through how I work with people.
Running through the financials.
The call is usually an hour or so – and I want folks to feel like we have worked together.
I want them to come away with more clarity than they came in with.
And if it seems like we might be a fit I always book a follow up call.
Tell them to sleep on it, gather their questions.
The second call is shorter.
There is sometimes a third call.
It’s interesting, I recently launched a VIP Day.
It’s more than a day – there are preliminaries and follow ups.
It’s a high end offer.
And I’ve had a bunch of people reach out from that – who are absolutely not interested in VIP days – but it woke them up to wanting to work with me somehow.
3. That Nick Cave thing is so cool. Signed up.
One word that comes to mind about you is resourced.
Not just resourceful. Resourceful – with a lot of resources!
You truly are interested!
One of the metrics about creativity I’ve discovered is the Triangle of Creative Genius.
I find creative people are usually more adept at one or two of them.
The three corners – aspects – are Alchemy, Imagination and Resourcefulness. AIR!
You know I do love a triangle.
4. I saw on socials tomorrow is World Tarot Day or something like that.
As far as inspiration goes – I love that deck.
I love the visuals and looking for meaning.
One of the things I help people with ultimately is knowing who they are and where they are.
As much as where they are going.
The first two lead to the third.
5. My newsletter!
I have two.
The original newsletter is UnCab based.
That is about the shows.
I always wrote something because I can’t bear to send out pure promo.
Context!
But I ended up writing a lot in them, and that didn’t feel appropriate either.
So I migrated the written emails over to Substack where I have, over the course of the past couple of years, developed it into The Infinite Creator.
I write about the creative life from the inside.
I finally have a rhythm.
UnCab goes out Tuesday. On a show week also Thursday and Friday reminders.
Substack on Wednesday and the podcast – which is an annotated – version of the written piece goes out Sunday.
I’m finding the more I have cadences that really work – they have to happen organically – the more I feel supported by structure.
Boundaries create freedom!
How do you handle schedules and cadences that make you feel more creative not less?
Thanks so much on PYNP.
It felt so great to finally put that teaching someplace where people can access it on their own while we are working together or before.
Warmly… your creative corresponder….
Beth
From Josh to Beth (Wednesday, May 27 at 11:57 am)
Hey Beth!
I’ve actually been cutting way down on my use of exclamation points since reading this, but I’m making an exception for saying hello to you in this email because that’s just how excited I am about our email exchanges.
Bunch of thoughts for you…
1. Weekends are different for me.
Especially since I’ve got a 3-year-old daughter who’s in school during the week, the “vibe” is totally different on a weekend.
I try not to do any “work,” but in some ways I’m always working because as a creative person I’m constantly noticing and thinking about things even if I’m not at my desk “working.”
The only actual work I’ll do on a weekend is on my newsletter if I didn’t get it done during the week, but I’ve been much better about that lately (I used to write it all on Saturday) so I really don’t do much work on weekends these days.
2. I’m almost done listening to Pick Your Project and loved an idea you shared in episode 3.
You said something along the lines of:
“When a writer pitches a show or a movie they’re not just pitching the idea – they’re pitching why they’re the one to tell the story. Gatekeepers aren’t just buying a product – they’re buying a product from a person.”
That is such an important concept and one that I think most people never consider. I also think it’s going to get even more important as AI gets bigger and bigger.
The human elements – the “Why you” is everything.
And obviously this extends way beyond just the entertainment world – I think it’s a relevant concept to anything anyone sells – even if what you’re “selling” is available for free. People still need to pay with their attention.
It also reminds me of something I often say to people I work with who are selling a product or service.
They spend so much effort trying to convince people that what they offer is good, but they overlook that what they offer isn’t the only thing that’s good.
Good is the baseline.
The real question is why should someone choose your good solution over someone else’s?
Differentiation is every bit as important as quality.
3. Pick Your Project is so good – but why are you gating it?
I’m curious why you’re making people submit an email address and jump through some hoops to hear the podcast.
I assume the answer is you want to be able to contact them, know who’s listening, add them to your email list, etc.
That’s a typical lead magnet approach, but it’s one I generally don’t think is the best approach.
When you’ve created something truly valuable like PYP, I think you’d be better off making it as easy as possible for as many people as possible to access.
Basically, don’t require an email address.
Put it up for free for anyone to listen to (and spread to others) and you’ll wind up reaching more people and generating more interest from people who want more of you than you will by gating it.
I also think this whole thing should go up on YouTube (as one long video version you could record) where it would also get discovered by more people.
I feel like you’re sitting on a golden piece of content and not getting nearly what you could get out of it.
But that’s just my opinion – curious to hear your thinking behind the decision to gate it.
Side note: This guy uploaded a 6-hour video that’s basically a free course a year ago. It’s got a million views.
4. I wrote a thing today about creating things I have a hunch will resonate with you.
5. Speaking of things you’ll love…
Have you watched this Rick Rubin interview?
Awesome. I’m a big fan of his but was surprisingly underwhelmed by his book about The Creative Act. Have you read it?
And here’s one more thing I came across that I know you’ll love…
Literally a couple hours after I listened to the part of your podcast about Why Now, I stumbled across this Bill Hader video.
Check out what he says at around the 34-second mark.
Serendipity!
6. All good things must come to an end…
Shoot me back one more email when you get a chance and we’ll wind down this little experiment.
Speaking of which…
Who do you know that you’d like to see me have a Creative Correspondence with down the road?
I’m open to suggestions.
Thanks!
(Woops – there’s another exclamation point. Old habits are hard to break.)
From Beth to Josh (Sunday, May 31 at 6:33 pm)
Re: exclamation points…
Haha! When I wrote My Other Car Is A Yoga Mat column for LA Yoga – my editor broke me of my exclamation point habit, I still am pretty strict about it in ‘real writing’ but am happy to enjoy their casualness in ‘communication writing’. Emails – posts.
If we all work at the same level on this kind of writing how will we ever have any energy for books, shows etc. Sometimes I do delete them if I think I’m using them in a ‘false smile’ way. But I count exclamations in a text and if I’m reading a winning text or email out loud to a partner I’ll be like blah blah blah – four exclamation points. haha.
Re: working on weekends…
Yep. It’s not like the antenna isn’t still receiving the signal.
Re: Good is the baseline…
Agree. As a gatekeeper myself I am never looking for good. I’m looking for undeniable. POV. Something that piques my curiosity. What’s behind the great story or set – are you someone who can keep coming up with it. In some ways I’m looking for relationships as much as product.
Re: that 6-hour video course…
A million views wow. That’s compelling. Would require a little bit of production… need to wrap my head around how… to answer…
First thank you – that means a lot coming from you!!!! (four exclamation points.)
From the beginning I always meant for it to live in more than one place.
I partially did it this way first for the emails – yes – put also so that it lived somewhere really cleanly. It helped me get to the finish line to put it up discreetly – to be able to see it as a complete and separate thing.
But then I was thinking I’d distribute the content other ways. I’m thinking next I will publish it as a podcast series through Substack. I already do my weekly podcast that jumps off of my weekly post. And Substack distributes to Apple (half my listeners are there) and elsewhere. I would do this weekly on a different day – and with the Pick Your Next Project title. Have also thought about YouTube episodically. I’ll mull the whole thing as one though.
Love to hear any thoughts or suggestions.
Re: your post about creating things…
Love that post. Here are two yes ands…
I have started to think about creativity not as making something out if nothing – but as making something out of everything.
And the system I’ve been developing – The 8 Habits of Infinitely Creative People lays out what a lifetime of doing that really means.
One other thing that has changed the way I approach creativity. The word create – comes from a word that means to grow – not to make. I know we use it in a way to mean to make – and it does – but I find that the work I am most interested in doing – helping other people do – adn watching have this element. If there is growth then you change and the next project is evolved – and you grow and etc – that’s the infinity of the Infinite Creator.
When I started using the infinity sign it was in a teaching called The Infinite Writer and it had to do with the relationship between stage and page. Out loud and inscribed. But as I developed the bigger picture called me. As I am always reminding myself and my clients – the way reveals itself as you walk on the way.
Re: Rick Rubin’s book…
Same. I have it and have leafed through it – and it kind of kicked me in the ass to get mine done. I have a pile of creativity books – mostly I use it to put my mic on when I podcast;) but I do love my friend Adam Moss’ The Work of Art.
Re: the Bill Hader video…
oh my god that Bill Hader thing. I love that but why now hahahah. Love him and Conan too. I interviewed Conan for my Other Network series. (failed pilots) he couldn’t have been nicer or more generous – same with his whole team.
Re: wrapping up our correspondence…
Thank you! Fun to experiment together – always open to a collaboration with you.
And apologies for this taking so long to finish – it’s just been… growth phase plus extra bonus things on my plate.
From Josh to Beth (Wednesday, June 3 at 2:13 pm)
Hey Beth!
A couple final thoughts as we wrap this up…
1. I advise you to do whatever you can to make it as easy as possible for people to consume Pick Your Project because it’s a strong piece of content and the easier it is to access, the more people will consume it.
And the more people who consume it, the more clients you’ll ultimately get from it.
Ungate it, put it on YouTube, put a transcribed version on your website, ask people you know to share/promote it to their audiences, go appear on other people’s podcasts to talk about it, and maybe even pay to promote it on social channels.
You’ve done the hard part in creating a valuable (and timeless) asset – now do things like that to get the most out of it.
It’ll work.
I’m sure when my audience reads this, some of them will check out Pick Your Project and I bet some of the people who do will reach out to you for more help.
Rinse and repeat.
2. Thanks again for helping me get this Creative Correspondence idea out of my head and into the world.
It’s been fun and I’m looking forward to doing it again with someone else.
I can’t wait to see where it goes.
(Which is always a good sign with any creative project.)
On to the next chapter in our creative lives!